Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

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rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

My feelings are pump it full of lubricating oil. Then, work it through the motor until it spills out the exhaust. This insures the residual fuel left behind is mostly flushed out.
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This is penetrating oil and Riches brew, NMPRA 15% it's thinner than lubricating oil. Even after agitation it seperated. Do your own test with your favorite after run to see if it mixes. If you're so inclined to use penetrating oil to prevent rust, do the motor a favor and lube the cylinder and piston with castor befor you flip it over or even worse try to start it.
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KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

I’ve enjoyed reading through this thread – I’ve gone through it several times and pick up something new each time. Thanks Rocket Ray and others for sharing your expertise. I’ve just gotten into Q40 this year and I know I have a LOT to learn. It's very humbling to have been in the RC hobby for about 45 years now (I'm 53 years of age) including four years of pylon racing, but to still have so much to learn in this new venue. But I’m loving every second of it. So now, if it’s okay, I’d like to post what’s been going on with my Nelson engine to see if I’m on the right track. I think everything is great with the engine, but I welcome advice and opinions.

I purchased the engine new this summer from Mike Langlois. Initial runs were in my Too Sweet on the ground with a 7.4 x 7.7 cut down to 6-1/2" as recommended to me. I blew the plug on the first run and here’s what the plug and exhaust looked like...
break-in exhaust.jpg
break-in plug.jpg
break-in plug.jpg (23.14 KiB) Viewed 2129 times
It's perplexing because the oil was dark, but the plug had no color. In retrospect, knowing I knew nothing back then and know more now, I'd guess the exhaust residue is too dark and maybe it was lean that run? The plug was blown, so I put in a new one and ran the engine again. This time the oil was pretty much clear.
break-in 2.jpg
I ran it on the ground three more times the same way for a total of five ground runs.

With the assistance of a couple other Q40 pilots needling the engine for me I flew the plane in practice at the race down in Wichita – probably about eight flights total. But I had to shut it down at least a couple of times because the plane was making a strange vibration sound. One of those times I actually thought the engine quit because the plane had suddenly slowed so much. The plug was dark brown on the OUTSIDE from two of those runs. So I put the engine away and borrowed an engine from Lonnie Finch. That seemed to cure the mysterious vibration noise for a while, but it seemed to come back. The plane is history now anyway.

I removed the head and found it to be peppered. I know the guys who were needling the engine for me know what they were doing, but there was something with that plane that just didn’t agree with the engine, or vice-versa.

I returned the engine to Mike Langlois and he honed the cylinder and installed a new piston and head. It's set at .190/.018. Mike said with the previous runs I had on the engine it was basically broken in.

I then installed the engine in my new Sweet Vee. This time I added about 3 oz. of castor oil to about ¾ gallon of fuel (first time the engine had been run with added castor). I got some advice from another trusted source to do the first launch for the maiden at about 23,000rpm I think it was. I was on my own, so it was time to be a big boy and needle the engine myself. :P I didn't want to damage the engine and I wanted to stay far away from anything even resembling a lean run, so I started out very conservatively and launched it around 21.5K. It was nearly hitting the pipe on the ground, so I figured it would come on the pipe in the air. All was well, the engine was great, but I could tell it was rich. The plane flew well and all was normal—no mysterious buzzing noise and the engine sounded good. I flew it five times that day. For the last flight I put in a new plug so I could get a good reading and launched it at around 24K. The plane seemed fast to me and sounded good. I was concerned I launched it a little high on the rpm, but when I came down and looked at the plug it looked good – possibly a little too much color, but okay I think. This is the plug after that flight...
20161023_130433.jpg
This was also before I learned about reading the pitch of props which I am now doing. I measured the pitch later and it came out to 7.0 (it's a 7.4 x 7.5). A few others I've measured come out to like 6.875, so maybe that 7.0 is a slightly “heavy” prop.

This past Sunday I put the Sweet Vee up three more times – same fuel (with some castor) and same 7.4 x 7.0 prop. First flight I launched at about 24,000rpm. The plug is the same as the one pictured above with the one previous flight also launched at about 24K. Here's the plug after its second flight, first one of this day...
24,000rpm plug.jpg
I put in a brand new plug and launched at about 23,500rpm. Another great flight. Much less oil on the bottom of the plane and it was cleaner. Plug had almost no color at all....
23,500rpm plug.jpg
Continued in next post...
Last edited by KRProton on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:42 am, edited 7 times in total.
KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

Continued from previous post...

So this is my final (3rd) flight of the day last Sunday. Same plug as the previous flight (2nd flight on plug overall). The plug may be ever-so-slightly darker, but the oil deposited on the plane was pretty clear. If it was lean I would think the plug would have been darker and after all, I launched at about 23,500rpm which is a little conservative, yes? In review, first flight launch at about 24k, then a new plug and two more flights at 23,500rpm. All seemed well. Here's the oil on the bottom of the fuse and the plug (Ray's reference to Terry Frazer after a 6-pack of beer? :lol: )...
3rd flight plug.jpg
3rd flight oil.jpg
Back at home I removed the head to find a shiny, mirror finish!
20161030_223126.jpg
So at this time it seems all is well with my engine. With the needle on a Jet engine mount with integral needle valve it's set at about 2-5/8 turns if that means anything. As the element looks a little distorted, I was also advised to consider adding another head shim to change the engine from its present setting of .190/.018 to .190/.019. This sounds reasonable to me.

I think I also have to consider the air I've been flying in; dense air I believe as this time of year it is cooler and humidity is down. That agrees with wanting to shim the head to lower the compression to compensate for the dense air, yes?

So now I'm grading the pitch of my props. I'm happy and content with the engine. My goal at this time isn't to tune the engine to the Nth degree, but to make sure it's on the pipe, doesn't overheat and lasts as long as it's supposed to. I'll give it my all every time out, but I don't expect to compete with Rocket Ray or Dan Kane just yet. It'd be nice to have a competitive, reliable engine where I can hit the needle and be competitive with other guys in my class.

Thanks for any comments you can offer about the needle settings, the plug, or what-have-you. :)

Tim
rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

Cool tip, instead of using a new plug to judge the motor use 0000 steel wool or, mothers mag polish to remove the carbon. Clean well and use again. This way your apples to apples in your evaluation. Looks like your well on your way to competeing on the next level.
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rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

This is with mother's


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Last edited by rocket on Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

rocket wrote:Cool tip, instead of using a new plug to judge the motor use 0000 steel wool or, mothers mag polish to remove the carbon. Clean well and use again. This way your apples to apples in your evaluation. Looks like your well on your way to competeing on the next level.
That's it Ray? A helpful tip and a compliment? :P Thanks! :) Guess I haven't screwed up my engine and I'm on the right track. I was all set to park my Sweet Vee for the season (until Phoenix), but we're still having unusually good weather, so maybe I'll change up that motor to .190/.019 and give it a whirl this weekend.

Thanks again!

Tim
rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

Another tip for you and owners of the SV. With the Vtail you can adjust travel volume to keep it tracking through the turns. If it's lifting the nose around 1, add to the starboard stab or takeaway from the port stab. Once it's tracking true you can add to the dual rate to make it turn hard or where your comfortable. No need for wingtip weight.
Check for full travel of the elevators. While holding full up move the rudder L and R. Note the travel up on both stabs. They should move up "past full up elevator " equally, if not the one that doesn't is prolly binding. You won't see this by just moving the rudder or just holding up. Had a plane that I kept adding up elevator to make it turn harder with no success. Then it stopped tracking through the turn. Drove me nuckin futz. Found the problem by accident while playing with the rudder and elevator.
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KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

Thanks for the trimming tip on the Sweet Vee Ray. :D

Okay, so I got the shims Mike included with my engine out of the package. I have the following:

(2) .001" head shims
(2) .003" head shims
(1) .005" head shim
(1) .008" head shim

As written on the slip of paper included with my refreshened engine, looks like there is a .001" sleeve shim under the sleeve to bring the piston deck height up to .190". Then, without the shim the piston deck height would be .189", right?

And the head protrudes into the sleeve .185" yielding a head spacing of .005". But Mike brought it up to .018" with .013" of shims (I presume a .008" shim and a .005" shim).

So how many shims do you guys carry in your spare parts boxes around to the races? Do you/can you reuse shims as long as they are not damaged or compromised somehow? Are the shims I have now enough to get me through a season of racing, or should I order more?

I presume sleeve shims are different than head shims, so guess I should get a stack of sleeve shims too?

Thanks.

Tim
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GaryS
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by GaryS »

I'd keep all my shims in your box that you take with you, as otherwise the one you really need will be sitting on the bench at home. That being said, once you have a good baseline setup, you really won't be changing it much if at all. As long as they aren't damaged, you can reuse them all you need, and yes, the head and liner shims are different (the liner shims have a larger ID to fit around the cylinder).
GS
KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

Thanks man! :)

Tim
rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

Extended motor life.

Randy and i were flying at mulberry Sunday. John V stopped by to spectate and as usual a discussion started about motors. We're talking about fits and plays, setups and needling techniques. I told him about a motor I have that's been through more $#!+ and still runs like a bear. When I say it's been through more mmmm I'm talking blown conrod, had to beat the cylinder out of it. A cracked case. just poor overall shape. I also told him it still runs as fast as any motor.
After disassembly, I had to clean up all the debris from the rod. The initial inspection, the case had two bulges from the rod trying to make its way through.ImageImage some thin CA in the cracks fixed the leaking. Next was the cylinder. It was fast before the explosion so using it again was definitely worth the fix. The case was scratched when removing the cylinder but test fitting a different cylinder proved ok so no work needed there. The cylinder was oblong from the rod beating it to death so lots of sanding on the two sides to get it back round enough to fit the case. Next was the inside bottom of the cylinder. Some small files and 320 made quick work of the burrs so the piston could pass with out obstruction. ImageImageImage next was the backplate. The rod damaged was not too bad so a little filing to the edges of the case it fit back no problem. Image. After sanding most of the plier marks from the big flange and a final cleaning and re assembly it's living proof you can still break a minute with another's man's trash. ImageImage

It's setup at no liner shim, 17 under the head. The dry fit is 230 down.
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KRProton
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by KRProton »

rocket wrote:It's setup at no liner shim, 17 under the head. The dry fit is 230 down.
Hey Ray.

I hate to be an idiot, but I've crunched the hell out of those numbers and I can't figure it out. I must be totally missing something. If the "230 down" refers to the deck height without shims, then, as best as I can math it out :lol: , that engine is setup at .230/.062:

.230 deck height minus standard head protrusion (assumed) .185" = .045" plus .017" shims = .062".

That ain't right. So what am I missing? :oops:

Or, I'll just forget about the .230 and assume standard deck height without shims - .188" and standard head depth of .185". Then, the engine is .188/.020 (.188" deck height, no shims, minus .185 head depth plus .017" shims = .02").

Tim
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

Lol, sorry tim. I was referring to where the piston grabs the cylinder. It's a very loose fit. Part of the discussion john and i were having. The no liner shim and 17 under the head is 188/20
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rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

vonderhey wrote:This info is directed towards Kurt but would work for all. You can call up Mike @ APM and order the set-up that I use. .192 & .019 . Ask for no glue in the crank and the piston fit @ .280 to .290 .
Tim, Lee refers to it here. Most piston are fitted much deeper. This "fit" in lees quote is .100 shalow of where you would normally get one from the manufacturer. By doing this you reduce the friction between the piston and liner. this allows the motor to unload harder. The motor in the pics has a fit of .230 you find this fit as illustrated before by cleaning off all the lubricating oil "use brake cleaner" from the piston and liner. Then you "push" the piston up into the cylinder until it stops. Measure the depth and you have the "piston fit". It's believed a looser fit is not going to last as long a tighter fit.
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rocket
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Re: Latest and greatest timing and deck height?

Post by rocket »

rocket wrote:I use brake cleaner to degrease the parts, then with them dry slip the piston up into the cylinder. Applying pressure until it stops. Now using a depth micrometer or the calipers measure the depth. Anything more than 200 thou still holds promise. Image
Image
The fit...
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