Longer course at the classic.

[KRProton]

We strive to achieve around 5-15ft past the poll with our racing program, there were multiple times where we didn’t get the light but no cut, so this makes sense.

If you’re basing when to turn off the light generally you are going to be long. especially if you are basing it off the Phoenix configuration where it’s 15ft past, that equals 300ft if you are right on top of the sight pole, realistically you average about 10ft past the site pole which is 25ft further than the official pylon one and 500ft total during the race.

It’s well known that there are many inconsistencies with the workers at pylon one, some lanes are very consistent others are not. Yes getting the light feels good but most callers are counting the time out loud then adjusting the next lap based off of what they saw before. If they didn’t get a light they extend, if they got a light before saying turn they know they are long. Is it right to base your whole competition results off of an low paid or unpaid volunteer?

With the aircraft going as fast as they are now and the average age of a worker it may make sense to change the way we do things.

I don’t think flying a heat and getting no feedback until the end on how many cuts you received makes sense due to the technology we have. If cuts posted normally throughout the heat you could still adjust if you got one cut down there and complete the rest of the heat. Likewise if you double cut you would know and be able to get off the course as to not cause a midair.

Option #1 would be to get a light if you made the pole on your way back from 1 & 2.

Option #2 being no lights at one and you just get feedback on cuts down there live during the heat like normal.

I’m indifferent because we don’t really used the lights based on the inconsistencies and because the threshold we try to achieve past one is so narrow it’s hard to rely on the light even with the best judge.

Gino

Again, just attempting to add to or further the conversation here:

Some time ago Randy Smith advised this to me as well - not to base your laps off the turn 1 light. Do your own thing and watch the lap board for a cut at 1 same as you do for 2 & 3. Doing it this way, Gino's Option #2 would be the way to go. I'm too chicken to advocate for this (it would be a bit of a leap for me to fly or call without a light at 1, but could probably/should probably get used to it), but wow, this greatly simplifies everything.

Tim Lampe

[GaryS]

At the worlds in 2015 they had a system where the worker at pylon 1 would do their best to anticipate the plane with a perfect light. If a plane made it they got a light instantly. if it didn’t, it got a light followed by 3 more flashing lights. This was instant notification that they were short. The genius in this system is
1, you got a single light if you made it.
2, if you got the light then instantly got the three flashing lights you knew you were close but short.
3 if you got no light you were not close enough to get the a light at all.
This was spurred by all the complaints of cuts/lights at one. The Bridge/Brown team were victims of this. How they do it at the worlds the starter would call each lanes turn judges to verify no cuts. When he called pylon one they reported back 2 cuts after giving lights for all ten laps.
Easy enough to train a worker to anticipate because they do it naturally and the caller instantly knows where they stand I.e. we got a light and a cut because you actually did get a light followed by three flashing and a cut. As a caller I liked it, not that I called any cuts at one. Bridge could give us all the cuts we needed at 2-3 that year. Well there might have been this one cut but I think he jumped me.

Just like the you get a light but still get a cut thing that some races do, you effectively get penalized for a cut if the worker gives the light early.

I don't understand how people like this idea more than possibly calling 15' longer, which at worst would be 300' over ten laps. Call me crazy, but if a worker isn't perfect, I'd rather lose half a straight away instead of a full lap.

[rocket]

At the worlds in 2015 they had a system where the worker at pylon 1 would do their best to anticipate the plane with a perfect light. If a plane made it they got a light instantly. if it didn’t, it got a light followed by 3 more flashing lights. This was instant notification that they were short. The genius in this system is
1, you got a single light if you made it.
2, if you got the light then instantly got the three flashing lights you knew you were close but short.
3 if you got no light you were not close enough to get the a light at all.
This was spurred by all the complaints of cuts/lights at one. The Bridge/Brown team were victims of this. How they do it at the worlds the starter would call each lanes turn judges to verify no cuts. When he called pylon one they reported back 2 cuts after giving lights for all ten laps.
Easy enough to train a worker to anticipate because they do it naturally and the caller instantly knows where they stand I.e. we got a light and a cut because you actually did get a light followed by three flashing and a cut. As a caller I liked it, not that I called any cuts at one. Bridge could give us all the cuts we needed at 2-3 that year. Well there might have been this one cut but I think he jumped me.

Just like the you get a light but still get a cut thing that some races do, you effectively get penalized for a cut if the worker gives the light early.

I don't understand how people like this idea more than possibly calling 15' longer, which at worst would be 300' over ten laps. Call me crazy, but if a worker isn't perfect, I'd rather lose half a straight away instead of a full lap.

Ok you’re Crazy

Seriously, I thought it was a neat system once you saw it in action. It was what the lights were designed for. Simply complementary. You didn’t make it ( no light) you almost made it (a light followed by three more) and you made it. It’s the best of all the worlds and the course worker has no guilt of getting abused by anticipation.

[GaryS]

Ray, Did the cut count if you got the light (followed by the three additional lights)?

[Von Der Hey]

This thread all started when Ray got double vision from falling off a ladder which has led him to see two poles at Pylon one. Now Ray is seeing three lights!

[MikeyD]

When I think of other high-level competitions such as NFL, NHL, NBA, and the most recent Superbowl, there's always going to be a bad call at some point during the game. I don't think technology or rule changes will ever solve bad or missed calls without severely slowing down the game. I have that same perspective for our pylon community.

I haven't been racing as long as others, but I can't think of any CD's (maybe 1 Ham. Oh.) that didn't go out of their way to train and mitigate the human element of error with their workers. For that, I accept that chit happens and is sometimes different from race to race. Perfect system no, everyone happy no, better system no, communicated better perhaps, who knows.

That said, I do want to thank all of the thought leaders and organizers for generating continuous improvement and disrupting the norm. It's the only way to improve. If you're a CD, organizer, Mfr. professional pilot/caller, or just generally a professional bullshitter, thanks for making the hobby what it is. I haven't found anything better to do, so I'll just continue to fly my toy airplanes. This thread makes me want to get back into the workshop, haven't opened the door since September.

If anyone has the results, could they post them? I'm not a social media guy; this is my main source of pylon news.

Mikey D

[rocket]

Ray, Did the cut count if you got the light (followed by the three additional lights)?

Yes

[GaryS]

Ray, Did the cut count if you got the light (followed by the three additional lights)?

Yes

So you'd rather have one course worker error (early light) lead to a 10% or 1 lap penalty? Or a potential second error lead to a 200 or zero?

[Greg Doe]

I'm with MikeyD. The Phoenix race was two weeks ago, and the results still haven't appeared on our official web site.

[rocket]

Ray, Did the cut count if you got the light (followed by the three additional lights)?

Yes

So you'd rather have one course worker error (early light) lead to a 10% or 1 lap penalty? Or a potential second error lead to a 200 or zero?

What does this mean? Where’s the error? You cut, you deserve a cut. This is another means of doing away with worker error not adding to it. Maybe re read the post of how it works. Workers want to give the perfect light, it’s not possible. The whole argument of you got a light and a cut is now mute. Sheesh...

[kane]

Yes

So you'd rather have one course worker error (early light) lead to a 10% or 1 lap penalty? Or a potential second error lead to a 200 or zero?

What does this mean? Where’s the error? You cut, you deserve a cut. This is another means of doing away with worker error not adding to it. Maybe re read the post of how it works. Workers want to give the perfect light, it’s not possible. The whole argument of you got a light and a cut is now mute. Sheesh...

The error was the worker pushed the button before he was supposed to.

Cut trumps a light does not solve our problem. It may for one lane for the guy that pushes the button early. It does not for the guy next to him that does his job really well. The problem is we have 4 people all doing their best and it isn't good enough in some cases. We don't change lanes, and we are stuck with that worker. I don't care if he pushes it late, early or flashes it 400 times. If he isn't as consistent as the guy next to him it isn't fair.

If we all flew like "Gino Gyro" it wouldn't be an issue. But we don't and some of us call for multiple people with multiple flying styles, skill and set ups. And we need the lights to do the best job we can for them.

Again, this is the chicken and egg paradox. What came first? The light or the cut? It is black and white in the rules. A signal to turn is given when the airplane makes the distance. NOT before. IF a signal is given prior to making the distance, it is an error by the worker. The worker can't do his job. SO, how do we fix this? The only way possible is to train and get better, or take the task away. We re-train workers every contest weekend. Re-training is not working.

DK

[Dave Yost]

Think of all time, effort, equipment and people the lighting system requires. (With all due respect to those whom have spent a lot of time trying to perfect these systems)

Just get rid of the lights. Use video cameras on each pylon. Race control reviews the video after the heat, points are subtracted. Done. No 11th lap....it will take a little longer to review and post times and points, but it takes that long to get the next group to the line anyway. I have never been to a race where the lights (batteries, triggers, training etc...) did not cause delays...in some cases, hours........

iPhones on tripods......

Dave

[rocket]

So you'd rather have one course worker error (early light) lead to a 10% or 1 lap penalty? Or a potential second error lead to a 200 or zero?

What does this mean? Where’s the error? You cut, you deserve a cut. This is another means of doing away with worker error not adding to it. Maybe re read the post of how it works. Workers want to give the perfect light, it’s not possible. The whole argument of you got a light and a cut is now mute. Sheesh...

The error was the worker pushed the button before he was supposed to.

Cut trumps a light does not solve our problem. It may for one lane for the guy that pushes the button early. It does not for the guy next to him that does his job really well. The problem is we have 4 people all doing their best and it isn't good enough in some cases. We don't change lanes, and we are stuck with that worker. I don't care if he pushes it late, early or flashes it 400 times. If he isn't as consistent as the guy next to him it isn't fair.

If we all flew like "Gino Gyro" it wouldn't be an issue. But we don't and some of us call for multiple people with multiple flying styles, skill and set ups. And we need the lights to do the best job we can for them.

Again, this is the chicken and egg paradox. What came first? The light or the cut? It is black and white in the rules. A signal to turn is given when the airplane makes the distance. NOT before. IF a signal is given prior to making the distance, it is an error by the worker. The worker can't do his job. SO, how do we fix this? The only way possible is to train and get better, or take the task away. We re-train workers every contest weekend. Re-training is not working.

DK

Rotating workers, educating workers. As simple a job as waiting until a plane passes a pole to push a button is still out of reach for some. Maybe we should just deal with what we have, like we have been for the last umpteen years. It’s obvious nothing is going to work.

[Von Der Hey]

I was not kidding when I said that the pilot should have a second caller at Pylon one solely to push the turn light button. This would put the responsibility of when to turn on either the pilot, the caller that is with the pilot or the second caller that is at Pylon one pushing the turn light button. The second caller doesn’t necessarily have to be a pilot. He or She could be a video game expert that with a little training could be very good at honing the pilot within a few feet of Pylon one. The cut judge then could focus on calling cuts and not have to worry about the turn light button. It would be a good idea if there was a second table to operate the turn lights from so the second callers are not on top of the cut judges.
However there would have to be a few rules that would need to be in place.
If the second caller is not present at the start of your heat you will then be flying with no turn lights.
If the second caller engages in conversation with the Pylon one cut judge then the pilot will be disqualified from the contest with no warnings.
This system would definitely stop the complaining about volunteers being too slow, trigger happy or sleeping at Pylon one.
Von Der Hey.

[Kurt Bozarth]

Lee,

I totally agree. A cut “judge” should simply say “yep, that’s a cut.” The trailer could swing by pylon one on the way to the flight line. Two “cut judges” would suffice at #1.

Kurt