Longer course at the classic.

[rocket]

At this year’s classic if you didn’t know there was a second pole at pylon number one. I didn’t walk down to see it I didn’t talk to race management about it but I could see it from where I was standing. Someone said it’s 15 feet further to the second “sight” pole. Race management didn’t mention it in the minutes, race management didn’t talk about it at the pilots meeting. the rumors in the pits were it was a anti-anticipation pole. As the course workers were not to anticipate the airplane going around the first pool but we’re to anticipate the airplane going around the second. Again I didn’t hear that from race management those were just rumors. Now that being said if the course workers were to give you a light when you went around the second pole, you affectively add 30+ feet to each lap making pull number one mute by using pole number two to judge the airplanes. Maybe Jimmy or Dr. Roy could pipe up with an explanation.

[Von Der Hey]

So how many cuts did you have at pylon one Ray?

[killerd]

Hi Rocket

I won't speak for Roy or Jim, nor am I confirming the rumor, but I've been doing that for several years(at least 5-6) now at the Basin. This has dramatically reduced "lights and cuts" ,which are caused by a pylon one judge anticipating and pushing the button when the pilot cuts and then giving it to him because they are told you can't have a light and a cut resulting in either more re-fly's or lower times. In a worst case scenario, the pilot will not get a light or a cut meaning he or she simply didn't cut. Best case, the pilot is getting far fewer "lights and cuts", and it reduces and almost eliminates the pilot who cuts and gets a clean time and possibly a record that is based on a shorter course. As a caller if I don't get a light, I expect a cut to pop up, but if the cut doesn't appear, I take the warning and assume I got a gift and stretch a bit. BYW, I've had 1 re-fly in 7-8 years and that was at the last Champ Race when we really had a light/button physically malfunction. Pretty sure Jim had 1 re-fly due to a pylon 1 judge mixing up planes in 1 heat.

I'm a fan of the site pole!!!

West Coast DK

[DT]

Great topic guys!

I struggled with turn lights halfway through the event not knowing that a turn light came on after 15’, I kept lengthening my calling until I got lights for Mario and Chuck! I struggled with many laps getting no light but no cuts so you lengthen your calls. This will be something I’ll ask from now on at the pilots meeting! As callers we all strive to call tight courses as Rocket stated with turn lights you’ve basically added 30’ to each lap! But I think it’s more like 40 to 45’ each lap! No one turns exactly on the second pole or the judge pushes an exact light (anticipating a perfect turn) with a push of the button.

So here’s my thoughts,

1) 10 perfect laps are with no lights meaning you turned between the 2 poles (perfect) laps.
2) You get turn lights meaning you and the judge are in perfectly synchronized ( never the case) or you’re flying longer than needed!
3) Yes this will provide a safety Cushion for the turn one judges which will absorb any errors occurring at the second pole but potentially creating longer times.

So in review here is the job of the pylon one judges:
1)Issue a light if the plane passes the 15’ marker
2) issue a cut if the plane turned before the first pole
3) issue no action if the plane turns between the two poles.

Contest directors please add the long pole to your pilots meeting.

My thoughts!
Dan

[ceandra]

I would think that if the judges are instructed to light at a 15' longer pole, this is a rules deviation and should be in all pre-contest literature. Rules deviations can also impact the acceptance of results for season points (though I doubt this would impact it).

Chuck
11H

[killerd]

Can somebody tell me at 200mph, how many milliseconds is 15’? I went down to pylon 1 and pushed a button when I first tried this and it was almost impossible to hold off hitting the light. The judges still anticipate and are hitting the button early(before the site pole), so the idea that you can somehow feel the 15 feet is really impressive. When you look at the site pole from pylon 1, it looks like us 3 feet past..
I am glad this subject came up so it can be discussed and debated. Many ways to look at this I’m sure.

DK

[DT]

Doug I think the main issue is not knowing length has been added and no lights when a good Cadence is going! Calling for Chuck and Mario I spent many laps looking for cuts because we were not getting lights! Those that want to give up 30+ feet to get lights go long but trying to get lights on the way back the 30 extra feet throws you off the game!

If we know what’s going on I think we’re all ok with it!

The issue about pilots getting early lights and no penalties are covered when the judges errors are allowed to be self corrected and no fast times and records set due to judges issues.

My thoughts

[DHG]

When I'm calling for somebody I use the light as confirmation that I didn't call them a cut. I don't wait for the light to say "turn" but I hope to see a light when the plane is on the back stretch, otherwise I make a mental note to stretch out my count a bit.

Some pilot/caller teams routinely use "good light" on the back stretch as reassurance that they can keep pushing as hard as they have been.

Admittedly I'm not precise enough to gauge a difference of 15 feet, but it would have changed my game a little if I had known there was a gray area in which "no light" wasn't necessarily a scary sign that the judge was debating whether to throw a cut, and was primed to hammer me on the next lap if I got that close again.

YMMV
Duane

[rocket]

So how many cuts did you have at pylon one Ray?

I only call for Bridge at world championships. All you mere mortals can breathe a sigh of relief now.

[kane]

I will chime in only because I can't resist. For the record... this was not my idea, someone from Florida gets all the credit for the idea. I do not implement this at races I CD.

I believe the instruction to the course workers is that the button is pushed when the model has reached the first pole and is between the poles. This is to eliminate the anticipation as it approaches the first pole. In theory if all the button pushers were in sync it doesn't matter, it is fair for everyone.

Where we run into issues is when a particular lane has a better button pusher than the one next to it. Or even worse, maybe your button pusher decides only to give a light when you make a legal turn no matter how long you are.

How did we get here:

1. We don't change lanes anymore, and if the workers stay in their spot you are stuck with it.
2. The airplanes are faster than they ever have been, and are in very close proximity to the next guy.
3. Workers are getting older. Volunteer pool is diminishing.
4. When a problem arises it is after the fact and you have already felt the effect with out any change or recourse.
5. The light stays on for a prescribed time rather than the amount of time beyond the pole. When we had shutters or flags the shutter remained open until you returned and passed the pole on the backside, allowing callers to calibrate. In today's lighting system there is no calibration for callers.


None of this is an issue if it is the same for all pilots in all lanes. Where we have issues is when it isn't and it is noticeable.

No answers for this one other than strong chief judge, and strong pole one workers. Meaning well trained and on top of each heat.

DK

[Terry Frazer]

I think the workers at pylon one should rotate chairs from time to time Terry

[Von Der Hey]

HELP WANTED:
Model airplane race course workers.
Two to three ten hour days.
You must supply your own chair.
Worker must be able to sit in the hot sun for extended periods of time.
Worker may only relieve him or her self when absolutely necessary.
Worker must have very thick skin and be able to endure numerous complaints.
Worker must have the reflexes of a Chinese Ping Pong player.
Worker must have 2015 vision.
Worker must be physically capable of manual labor at the beginning and end of each shift.
Worker must be able to count to 12.
Worker must be able to practice nepotism.
If you meet the minimum requirements of a model airplane race course worker you will be compensated with the following per day:
One possibility two cold hot dogs.
One bag of stale chips.
One warm can of soda.
Please apply to Contest Management and remember to apply early due to the long line.
Von Der Hey.

[pastpres]

Well said Lee

[GaryS]

When the unnamed person in Florida came up with the idea of the second pole, the thought was that the judge would push the light button when the aircraft turned between the two poles, or at the second pole if the airplane had not yet turned. I'd venture to say this is what has been happening, or else there'd be all kinds of cries over not getting lights because people turned at 10'.

If the cuts are based on the original pole, the course is NOT any longer.

At 185mph, it takes about .055 seconds to travel 15'.

Typical reaction time for a human is .25 seconds.

We have a reaction time for the course worker.

We have a reaction time for the pilot.

Sorry, but if you think a second pole is making a difference in your heat, I think you're full of it.

And I'd rather have a light come on .055 seconds later than it "should have" than it come on early but I still get called a cut.

[rocket]

When the unnamed person in Florida came up with the idea of the second pole, the thought was that the judge would push the light button when the aircraft turned between the two poles

This makes no sense. If a worker can’t anticipate the first pole how on earth are they going to anticipate 7.5 more feet. The complaint heard the most was no light and no cut. This was causing havoc for the callers. Because now their compensating by default to call longer. I.e. forced to go around the second pole to get a light. That is a longer course.