Question, and only a question!

Pylon Racing General Interest --

Topic Author
moe4sho
Super Contributor
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:49 am
Flag: Belgium

Question, and only a question!

Postby moe4sho » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:14 pm

So I'm going to ask a question. And this is only a question. Not to start a shitstorm of controversy as all of my other questions have done. Lol!

So now that we all have decided that the CUT DOES TRUMP THE LIGHT.

Let's move on to the next issue with pylon racing. Which is the staggered start.

For example: first heat lane one vs lane two. So lane one takes off first in a staggered start .5 second before lane two. However, lane two crosses the finish line only .25 seconds behind lane one. Didn't lane two just complete 10 laps quicker, and end up second? Assuming the clock starts ticking on all 4 lanes at the same time.


RB
Super Contributor
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:17 am
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby RB » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:36 pm

And in FAI racing, this is how your are scored. Come join us at the next trails. :D

In NMPRA racing staggered starts are nearly a must, saves equipment for sure. When I started pylon racing all races were race horse style, and I remember frequent take off crashes.

RB


Topic Author
moe4sho
Super Contributor
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:49 am
Flag: Belgium

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby moe4sho » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:44 pm

Not sure my personality would be a good fit for FAI!


GaryS
Super Contributor
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 1:58 pm
Location: Worldwide
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby GaryS » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:51 pm

Well, to answer your question and only answer your question....Yes, lane two gets second even thought they completed the ten laps .25 seconds quicker. ;)
GS


rocket
Super Contributor
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:57 pm
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby rocket » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:55 am

And the same goes for the even rounds so it's a wash. The only un fair thing about this system is 5 rounds and helsel getting to take off first 3 times. Cause you know he abuses the light like no other.
And I said, here am I send me.


KRProton
Super Contributor
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:11 pm
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby KRProton » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:40 am

I should probably stay out of this because I don't know what I'm talking about, but at a recent race I was talking with Dan Kane about this, and maybe I didn't understand him correctly, but after the discussion I was under the impression that somehow the .5 second difference in the stagger is accounted for in the timing -- the clock for the 2nd push starts .5 seconds behind the first.

If I'm correct, the time element is accounted for, but unless the guy with the 2nd push flew more than .5 seconds faster than the first push, even if the 2nd push had a faster time he will still get one point less than the 1st push guy for he will still have crossed the finish line 2nd.

Anybody? Buller? Buller?
Attachments
confused meme.jpg

User avatar

kane
Super Contributor
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:21 am
Location: Illinois
Flag: Ireland
Contact:

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby kane » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:41 am

KRProton wrote:I should probably stay out of this because I don't know what I'm talking about, but at a recent race I was talking with Dan Kane about this, and maybe I didn't understand him correctly, but after the discussion I was under the impression that somehow the .5 second difference in the stagger is accounted for in the timing -- the clock for the 2nd push starts .5 seconds behind the first.

If I'm correct, the time element is accounted for, but unless the guy with the 2nd push flew more than .5 seconds faster than the first push, even if the 2nd push had a faster time he will still get one point less than the 1st push guy for he will still have crossed the finish line 2nd.

Anybody? Buller? Buller?


Tim, I may have misled you. SORRY bud.

For FAI purposes the clock starts when it is your turn to launch.

For fast time purposes in the US style of racing it is best to be on the first push. I do not remember the context of our specific conversation. BUT...

My understanding is for our system all the timers start at the first launch. So Moe is accurate in his assessment. The second place guy is faster but still gets second because he crossed the finish line second. At the time, Tim and I had just turned a time that was .5 seconds faster in the second round than the first and we were discussing the reason being because in the second round we took off first compared to the first round where we took off second.

Having said that we just asked a guy to push a button within .25 of a second accurately, so who really knows what to believe. Did he really just turn a time faster than the first place guy? OR was this guy incompetent and made a mistake by "ANTICIPATING" the finish? :mrgreen: One more nugget, what happens when the starter goes by time? He is not supposed to, he is supposed to record the finish order based on what he saw (not always possible), and the lucky guy in the second push lane has a happy timer and he is now .25 faster than the guy who actually finished first. I guess this is OK or just another point for a future argument.

For US racing the clock doesn't matter, it is who crosses first. For FAI, the clock is king and controls the outcome of the event.

DK
Last edited by kane on Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.


KRProton
Super Contributor
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:11 pm
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby KRProton » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:04 am

Thanks for clarifying Dan - I knew you would.

I'm sure you explained it to me correctly. My mind was probably elsewhere thinking about cats or chocolate or something.

Tim
Attachments
cat.jpg


Topic Author
moe4sho
Super Contributor
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:49 am
Flag: Belgium

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby moe4sho » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:39 pm

rocket wrote:And the same goes for the even rounds so it's a wash. The only un fair thing about this system is 5 rounds and helsel getting to take off first 3 times. Cause you know he abuses the light like no other.


Agreed! If you run a staggered start. You should have an even amount of rounds.

But, I have a question for you Rocket. Say you're in a heat race against me, and you're in a heat race against GS. Which heat race would want to be first push?


Dave Yost
Super Contributor
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 1:49 pm
Location: San Diego, CA
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby Dave Yost » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:30 pm

Until we get Transponders or GPS tracking on airframes, this conversation is a waste of cyberspace.

The airplane that crosses the finish line first wins under NMPRA /AMA rules. It's a race of distance, not time(?). As long as you have a human pushing a button, the .5 second
marinates in.

Racers will be racers, I get the disire to get it right.... But at the end of the day, not much that can be done.

Dave


Topic Author
moe4sho
Super Contributor
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:49 am
Flag: Belgium

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby moe4sho » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:36 pm

I'm actually advocating for Race Horse starts. That's really the only fair way to start a race.

Moe


twitte
Super Contributor
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:17 pm
Location: Mint Hill, NC
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby twitte » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:51 pm

Moe,

You just have to have a good caller to push your plane well enough to get you to #1 first when you are second push!!

;-)

Trey


killerd
Super Contributor
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 1:01 am
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby killerd » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:26 pm

I will agree with race horse starts when the following 3 things come true:

1. The 2nd flag planes are losing the majority of their heat races by less than the clock difference of the 1st flag.
2. 98% of the pilots can take off straight in all wind conditions.
3. All volunteers at pylon 1 and lap counting are consistently perfect with no errors on a regular basis.

West Coast DK


GaryS
Super Contributor
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 1:58 pm
Location: Worldwide
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby GaryS » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:27 pm

moe4sho wrote:But, I have a question for you Rocket. Say you're in a heat race against me, and you're in a heat race against GS. Which heat race would want to be first push?


I'll make it easy...you can both have the first push...I'll still beat both of you to the finish! :D

In all seriousness, I can only think of a couple times where I've been in a heat and had the starting order be the difference of who won or lost. While I like race horse starts better, it really doesn't matter.
GS


rocket
Super Contributor
Posts: 408
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:57 pm
Flag: United States of America

Re: Question, and only a question!

Postby rocket » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:40 pm

GaryS wrote:
moe4sho wrote:But, I have a question for you Rocket. Say you're in a heat race against me, and you're in a heat race against GS. Which heat race would want to be first push?


I'll make it easy...you can both have the first push...I'll still beat both of you to the finish! :D

In all seriousness, I can only think of a couple times where I've been in a heat and had the starting order be the difference of who won or lost. While I like race horse starts better, it really doesn't matter.

Agreed, don't matter which flag. A good race will be won and lost with the .5 being the separation. That's the 1%. All other heats will work them selves out in a couple laps and the better prepared team will prevail.
And I said, here am I send me.


Return to “General Discussions Q500 & Q40”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ceandra, EdSmith and 3 guests